SPEAKER_02: 0:00

And so if we've had a lot of betrayal or if we've had a lot of negative experiences, moving forward is going to feel exponentially more difficult because our database says that's scary and that's uncertain, and my nervous system equates uncertainty and unfamiliarity with danger.

SPEAKER_00: 0:24

Welcome to this Empty Nest Life, the podcast dedicated to helping you embrace this transformative season with purpose, passion, and joy. In each episode, we explore stories, strategies, and insights to help turn your empty nest into an exciting new chapter. Whether you're redefining your identity, pursuing new passions, or finding peace in the pause, you're in the right place. Here's your host, the Empty Nest coach, Jay Ramsden.

SPEAKER_01: 0:46

Hey there, my emptiness friends. When the kids leave home, you might find yourself confronted with challenging questions like should we downsize, maybe move, or even whether or not staying together as a couple makes sense. Today I'm joined in studio by Lori James, a mother, divorcee, recovering caregiver, author, and somatic relationship coach. And Lori's memoir, Sandwiched, a memoir of holding on and letting go, chronicles the questions and challenges she faced and how she turned them into a journey of self-discovery and empowerment. Lori, welcome to this emptiness life.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21

Thank you, Jay. So wonderful to be here with you.

SPEAKER_01: 1:25

Yeah, I I'm I'm glad that you, you know, and I connected. I think we connected on Instagram to say, hey, let's do a podcast swap. Because I think the work that we do kind of overlays each other and kind of the same space. But your story is rather interesting to me, and I think will resonate with folks who are listening because you you've been through a lot in your life and your journey. You know, if you look at your memoir, and it's just one of those things like, well, how do you like we do this with our kids just as a general frame in empty nesting? We do hold on, and then we have to figure out how to let go, but you held on and let go of a lot of different things.

SPEAKER_02: 2:01

Indeed. Probably held on maybe a little too long and too tight for certain things. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 2:10

You know, you talk a little bit about how it was like you couldn't, I almost seemed like you couldn't find your place in this world in terms of relationships. It's kind of my big takeaway.

SPEAKER_02: 2:22

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 2:23

So tell me a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_02: 2:26

Yeah. So just to go back to that time frame. I titled my book Sandwich because of the sandwich generation. I was sandwiched between raising my four daughters. My mother fell ill, and I was overseeing her care. And then about a year into that, my marriage started to fall apart. There was some betrayal that happened in our marriage. It wasn't infidelity, but it was financial betrayal. And it was like pulling the one of the four pillars of a chair out from under me. Um, and it was, it really rocked my world. And so I really took this eight-year period of time that I write about in my book to go inward, even though I was dealing with a lot of external things, you know, just the all the things that come with teenage girls, because I have four daughters.

SPEAKER_01: 3:27

Yeah, all the things. I have a daughter, so I know the thing.

SPEAKER_02: 3:30

Times four crazy caregivers who were stealing from me, who were emotionally seducing my dad, who were, you know, buying two of things at the grocery store and sticking, sticking them in my trunk. So there's a lot of really funny and good stories, also sad stories in the book. But I really took, and I I continue to, I'm an introspective person. So I really took that time to look inward of like, why are these things happening to me? I'm a good person. I try to do my best. I'm trying to show up as a good wife, you know, to make sure that dinner's on the table, that the kids are to their activities. Why is all this happening to me? And so that put me on a growth trajectory of, you know, I started out in the spiritual world and I was kind of like grasping at some extent, like you said, because I was trying to find out like who I was. I had lost a part of myself through the process. And in reality, when I really look back at it, I don't know that I had really truly found myself until I started this journey because I was adopted, because I didn't feel like I belonged in my family growing up. And so I felt lonely most of my life. And then I found myself in a fairly lonely marriage. And it, and you know, my ex-husband has some very good qualities. He has some not so great qualities. We're very civil, but um, you know, he crossed some really big boundaries in our relationship that really, and there wasn't respect for what I was contributing to the marriage and the relationship and to our family as a whole. And that came from his upbringing. And that took me a long time to actually come to terms with that this wasn't about me, what I was doing or not doing. This was him. And could I live with that or could I not? So, you know, I'll uh a little news break here. I I do end up leaving my marriage at the end of my book. So it's a little bit of a spoiler alert, but there's lots of other really good nuggets in there of growth and things to do and not to do. But, you know, the pivotal point in that was I was lying in bed one night crying because of, you know, the 120th fight about something stupid that we had. And I literally felt like if I stayed in my marriage, my soul was going to wither away and die. That was the thought that I had. And so the next morning, and this my my youngest are a set of identical twins. They had just left for college. So there was no buffer, right? There was no buffer there. And I just thought, okay, I can stay in this marriage and wither away and die, or I can not be an empty nester, but I can find freedom and be a free bird. That's love that. Yeah, love that. That's my little spin, my perspective. And I can find um, I can go out and do something really scary, really unpredictable, and I can leave my marriage. And I knew that I was going to be happier if I did. And so that was, and believe it or not, Jay, that was eight years ago. Wow. To the month is when that happened.

SPEAKER_01: 7:12

Eight years to the month. Yeah. Yeah. You had mentioned, you know, as you're telling the story a little bit about betrayal. And I think it comes in all different forms and shapes, and it is all based upon you know our baggage. Sure. And so you know, I've been thinking a lot about like my baggage isn't your burden.

unknown: 7:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 7:34

But then it becomes sometimes it becomes because you don't address it yourself. So you were you you started to address things for yourself after all of that happened.

SPEAKER_02: 7:43

Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And I was met with a lot of anger on the other end because I was the glue. I was appeasing in the real in the marriage, in the relationship, until I hit a wall, which I probably should have hit earlier, which that was my insecurities at the time. And so I tolerated a lot. But I also had, you know, there in the book, I their pivotal points through that time where I was ready to leave the marriage, but then my mom was on hospice. And how do I lose two of the most important people in my life? My mother and my marriage, you know, the my husband. Yeah, 100%. Like I didn't feel I sat in therapy and I didn't feel like I had the strength to do that. And we were in therapy for five and a half years. So it's not like we, I, we didn't, well, it was really me, but I was kind of pulling the the train, so to speak. But there was no left, there was no stone left unturned.

SPEAKER_01: 8:59

When you do that examinization of kind of like your life, your marriage, your your partnership, your being a parent, all the different things. Like we do this from time to time in our lives is can we examine things? And you're a coach, I'm a coach. We call those, you know, we look at like maybe what are limiting beliefs and are holding us back, which are really just things that you know keep us stuck. I like to say. What are things that keep you stuck? Because people hear limiting beliefs are not sure what that means. But what was it like when you began to challenge and then ultimately change the things that held you back, those limiting beliefs? When did that take place in this journey?

SPEAKER_02: 9:34

So oh I would probably say in the middle, because the first like four years, I was like just trying to get my bearings, like I kept getting pushed. It was like I'm on a balance, one of those balance balls, and I kept falling off. I kept falling off, right? And so I was like, okay, so how do I how do I balance with all of this stuff going on? And I didn't always do it well, but we're human, right? And so it was it, it was really towards the end of my marriage when I was really doing a lot more, probably the middle to the end. I was doing a lot of spiritual work, and I wasn't doing a lot of coaching, but I was in therapy, and I started to realize that these are some of my core wounds, right? Because when you're put up for adoption, one of not everybody, but one of my core beliefs or limiting beliefs is that I'm not lovable and I'm not wanted. Sure.

unknown: 10:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 10:52

Quite naturally, from the experience.

SPEAKER_02: 10:55

And so then I so I picked somebody who had trust issues who couldn't fully trust me in the way that I needed to be trusted in a marriage and a relationship. And I did that unconsciously 26 years ago, or at the time we were married for 26 years. It's been much longer than that. But at the time, I thought I was picking somebody very different than my parents, right? But I ended up picking somebody emotionally very, very similar.

SPEAKER_01: 11:26

Yeah. It's again the baggage piece that we don't even recognize sometimes when we get into relationships and life, and we kind of sometimes people just feel stuck and they stay stuck.

SPEAKER_02: 11:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 11:38

Right. You didn't, you didn't stay stuck. So I think that's what I want to focus on. And like that part of the journey is like you, you've probably had some pretty pro profound shifts in your life, especially post divorce.

SPEAKER_02: 11:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 11:51

Yeah, what do those look like?

SPEAKER_02: 11:54

So I'll share a little story and it'll kind of go into some of the to explain some of the work that I do now too. So when I left my marriage, I was the one that moved out. I moved out of the house. I won't get into the details of why that happened, but my kids were gone, so I I was okay being the one that moved out because my kids weren't there anymore. If my kids were there, I would not have been the one to move out. So, and I live in a beach community, and I felt like I was skipping down the beach. Like that's how much freedom I felt. And I'm a I'm in general, I'm an independent person, I'm an adventurous person, I like to try a lot of things, I'm an avid skier. But what happened was I said yes to too many things when I left my marriage. I started dating too soon. I was writing my book, I started a coaching program that I was in, but then I also started to coach other people. And I remember, so this was about a year and a half after I left my marriage. Uh, we were ready to sign the divorce paper. Actually, I had signed the divorce papers. I had uh put an offer on a house, and that was the closest thing that I experienced to a panic attack, which I have lived with low level anxiety most of my life. I know that now. I didn't know that then, but I was like, okay, this is what an anxiety attack feels like. Which I have a daughter who struggles or did struggle. She's got that under control now, which was another barrier for me leaving my marriage because I needed to make sure my kids were taken care of back then. So, you know, I'm the adult. I wanted to make sure my kids were healthy and ready to go off to college. And and I got really, really sick and landed in the hospital. Like, and I'm a healthy person. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01: 13:58

Too much, too much input, too much change.

unknown: 14:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 14:01

Too much change. And that was a really pivotal point. And it and it knocked me out. And I was in the hospital twice within two weeks. I left the hospital the first time with a walker. And I had severe back pain. I was on many medications, which then they were chasing, you know, one medication caused one side effect. And then, you know, so it was, I'm like, get me out of this hospital, otherwise, you're gonna kill me from just being on all these medications. But then I was also in a lot of pain. And so at the and at the time, I was not in therapy. And a friend of mine who is a therapist said, You need to go see Bob. And I said, Okay. And Bob was a somatic experiencing practitioner, and on top of being a therapist. And that was a very pivotal point in my life because I learned what body-based healing was and how it can profoundly help us. And so, just for your listeners to understand, somatic come is derived from the Greek word soma, which means body and then experiencing. So it's a body-based therapeutic modality that anybody can get trained in, as long as you're, you know, whether you're a coach or an acupuncturist or first responder, there and it's there's a lot of buzzwords going around about somatic, this, somatic, that, and nervous system regulation, which please be very careful, because the program I went through was a three-year program. So it's not just a week, you know, a week program or a a one-month program. But what happens, the the theory is, and I believe this happened to me, is our body keeps the score. Our our trauma stays in our body. It's not the traumatic experience that happened, it's what stays stuck in the body because we did not complete that fight, flight, or freeze response in the moment because our we are not taught how to do that.

unknown: 16:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 16:13

And I love that you bring that up because you know, people here are somatic, they're not sure what that means, somatic healing, but it is. It's like the body does keep score. There's there's even a book about it, I think, right?

SPEAKER_02: 16:22

Yeah, uh with the same title. Yeah, Bessel van der Koelk. It's called The Body Keeps the Score. It's a really great book. I was trained under Peter Levine's program, who he's one of the other big body-based founders. He's been studying this, he's in his 80s now. He's been studying this for over 50 years. Another one is Gabor Mate. He's another big, you know, body-based trauma. But and and at that point, I had I had been in therapy for a long time. I had even gone away for a weeklong program, an intense therapy program. So I'd been in through a lot of therapy, but it really wasn't until I connected with my body and really started healing from that point, is when my life really started to change for the better, because 80% of our sensory information travels from our body up to our brain. Really, only 20% travels from our brain down to our body. And that keeps us stuck. And so, and the other thing I just want to say on that is sensations are the language of the nervous system. So when we can go inward and feel, okay, I'm noticing some buzzing right now. I'm more activated right now because I'm on a podcast talking to Jay and there's an audience listening. So I'm noticing that. But can I feel the chair underneath me? Can I feel my feet on the ground? And can I stabilize my nervous system or ground myself a little bit more to know that this conversation is safe?

SPEAKER_01: 18:09

Yes. Yeah, I love that that you bring that up because I think people do have a uh a trouble understanding exactly what it means. It's like, how do you heal the body from within? Like, isn't that what doctors are for in medicine? And not necessarily. So you talked about the back pain, right? And you probably went through something to heal that yourself to complete the cycle of the flight, fight, or freeze.

unknown: 18:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 18:32

Can you give my listeners kind of an example of what that might look like?

SPEAKER_02: 18:36

Yeah. So when I started working with my somatic practitioner, uh and here's the thing is these exercises are very simple. And it would, it's all about slowing down first, which is really hard for our society to do because we're not taught to slow down. And when we feel emotion, it feels scary or dangerous, or we have a thought that comes up that associates that I'm a loser, I'm weak, or whatever it is. But I like to think of it, I didn't really put these words together until I went through my own training. But what I like to think about is a lot what my therapist and SCP did was allow me to slow down so my emotions could emerge. I can experience them, express them, and then expel them. And when we allow to us to do that and really feel the sadness, feel the grief, which is not always fun and easy to do. And sometimes it comes with physical pain, we can express and expel them. And that is allowing us to complete that cycle. And there's different, somatically, there's different ways to do that. If we have a lot of anger because of maybe somebody cheated on us or somebody betrayed us, one thing that I do with my clients is I have them take a fist and open their hand and push into it really hard and then let go and notice what they feel in the body. What are the sensations? Do you have tingling? Do you have a relief? Does it, is there warmth? There's their coolness. And that is allowing you to complete that fight response that maybe didn't get completed during the argument or during whatever. You know, we also are trained in car accidents and other traumatic experiences too. So we might have you visualize completing something or having a different outcome because our nervous system doesn't know past from present. And and but it uses past information and helps, you know, it kind of uses that database of past information and uses that in how we make decisions in the present day. Right. And so if we've had a lot of betrayal or if we've had a lot of negative experiences, moving forward is going to feel exponentially more difficult because our database says that's scary and that's uncertain. And my nervous system equates uncertainty and unfamiliarity with danger.

SPEAKER_01: 21:38

Yeah, almost like, oh yeah, if I do this, I'm gonna die. Yeah. Even though you won't necessarily probably 99% of the time. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 21:46

But your nervous system doesn't know that.

SPEAKER_01: 21:48

Yeah, it doesn't see it like you see it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And so I think the the part about actually feeling your feelings, that's something I think people possibly or more likely will struggle with. Like I love the example of putting your hand into your fist and like feeling what that feels like and then letting go and being like, oh, yeah. Okay, I felt, you know, maybe in my left arm I felt a little tingling sensation someplace. Great. Let's dive into that. Like, why? You know, why was that piece? You know what it feels like. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 22:20

And and and when when I work with clients, we don't try and go into the why so much. Perfect. Just notice and allow whatever comes up, comes up. So that could be an image. Maybe you want to do it another time. Maybe you feel like you want to, your body needs to move more. It's more about letting the body naturally do what it wants to do to complete versus going in back into our head.

SPEAKER_01: 22:55

Love that.

SPEAKER_02: 22:56

And sometimes we can even say, like, does that you're you're noticing something in your arm? Does it have a shape? Does it have a color? We might equate something like that, but we want it to naturally come up and not prompt things so much as maybe we do in coaching.

SPEAKER_01: 23:17

Got it. Love that. You kind of clarified that. I guess a good example would be like if we're in an argument and we feel like our face gets red. Yeah. Like that flush, like that fire in the cheeks sort of thing is like a good example of what that feels like. And if you don't complete that cycle, then it's going to end up in your body someplace.

SPEAKER_02: 23:36

Right. And so if you're in a heated argument and you have your face and it's red and you you feel it getting flushed, maybe you say, Hey, Jay, I want to finish this conversation, but I don't feel like I'm in a good place. That, you know, can we come back once we're more centered and grounded? Because what's happening in that moment, most likely, is our nervous system is going up more into a sympathetic, activated state in that moment. And when our when our nervous system goes up into that sympathetic state, our amygdala, our prefrontal cortex turns off. And so we're not thinking rationally anymore. And that's when, and we've all done it, said something we regret or do something that we might regret later.

SPEAKER_01: 24:30

Yeah, the human advanced part of our brain turns off and our animal brain comes out.

SPEAKER_02: 24:35

And and all, you know, and here's the thing it's like, let's not shame ourselves or about that, or judge ourselves, or judge others, because what we're doing in that moment, and you said it beautifully, we're just trying to protect ourselves in that moment. And it's our nervous system taking over, saying, This feels dangerous, so I'm gonna protect myself in any way I can. Even though what you said might have been hurtful to me or, you know, you know, was a trigger or something like that. But yes, when we can calm down and come to a more centered, grounded place, we can then have that perspective again. But in the moment, you're just surviving.

SPEAKER_01: 25:19

Yeah, which I think a lot of us do all the time, is just surviving. And then we often don't know how to get ourselves out of just surviving constantly, which is I I think why a lot of people end up being in the same position of being like, Oh, you know, I've been married to somebody for X amount of years and I'm looking at them, and even if there is no betrayal, like there is obviously some people have that, like you did, but some people just grow apart, yeah. Right? And it's like, how do we handle that piece as well? And so when you look at that from like, you know, we talked uh I've talked about it on the show before, is like great divorce is like the the the the biggest growing type of divorce that there is. Uh and it ends up being, hey, we get stuck in this one place in terms of our our marriage and our partnership. And like, how would how would you help somebody who's there in like in the work that you do, feeling to get unstuck, even if to the point of being uncoupled, I think you call it uncoupling.

SPEAKER_02: 26:18

Yes, uncoupling, uh you know, it's never an easy decision and it's never an easy process to make that decision. You know, I I uh when I'm working with clients that are thinking about divorce or going through, you know, if the divorce is already happening, you're still grappling with a lot of things, right? But but what I really try to do with my clients is I try and first I want to stabilize their nervous system because again, just like we were just talking about, so there's there's three states of the nervous system. There's our parasympathetic, there's our sympathetic, and then what we call our dorsal vagal. So our parasympathetic is more of our rest and digest. It's where we feel joy, where we, you know, connect with other people. And then when we move into our sympathetic, is like, you know, when we're working out and exercising and working, and and ideally we want to move freely between our sympathetic and our parasympathetic. What happens is when we and our society rewards us for this, go, go, go, do, do, do, work, work, work, take care of the kids, take care of the family, blah, blah, blah. I and like what happened to me, I was up in my dorsal vagal and my body shut down, right? That's when shutdown, that's when numbness, that's when we disassociate up in our dorsal vagal. So what I try and do from a nervous system standpoint is first I try and stabilize their nervous system through coaching and through a lot of somatic, simple somatic practices to get them to a state where they're more stable. And when we're more stable is when we can make better decisions for ourselves, right? Again, because our prefrontal cortex is back on when we're down more in our parasympathetic, and we can make better decisions for ourselves and our families. Because trust me, I've been in therapy and I threw my ring against, you know, across the room and say, I'm out of here, I'm done. I'm and I came back the next day. And you know, there was definitely some shame around that. But I look back at that now, and it was like it was my nervous system taking over. It was, you know, protecting me in the moment. And in that moment, I didn't want to leave, I wanted to flee.

SPEAKER_01: 28:50

That's right. Yeah, you didn't want to fight and stand like you wanted to run away.

SPEAKER_02: 28:54

So that's really the first step that I do. And then I really work with my clients to help them understand what is important to you. What do you value? What are your values? And how do you want to live your life? Like, you know, whether you're in your 50s or 60s, we have so much more life to live because we're living longer. What do you want this next chapter to really look like?

SPEAKER_01: 29:20

I think that's such an important piece for people to understand. It's like it is a time. You can be very happy in your marriage and still decide to say, hey, what else is there?

SPEAKER_02: 29:29

For what the grass isn't always greener. And you know, having been in the dating world on and off for about six, seven years, I mean, the pool is smaller. And when you get really clear on what you want, the pool gets even smaller. But it doesn't mean that there aren't other people out there. And I know a lot of people, both men and women, who are choosing not to remarry or to not even couple. And that's okay too.

SPEAKER_01: 30:35

Yeah. You have to find out what works for you. Yeah. Either in in marriage and staying and it's working and it's fine, you still need to find out what works for you as an individual. I always feel like we're stronger to like we're stronger as an individual, like if we figure out what we want.

unknown: 30:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 30:51

And then the other person figures out what they want. And if you can do it together and and have things happen together for both of you, it's not one way or the other, like, oh, I've got to do everything this person wants or everything that person wants. It's um it's like bringing 100% the Vinn diagram, right?

SPEAKER_02: 31:06

Like here's you, here's your spouse or significant other, and you know, is there enough crossover? Yeah, exactly. That's important. But I think the other piece that's really important in any relationship is can you have conflict and repair?

SPEAKER_01: 31:23

Oh, repair. I like that. Yeah, instead of resolution, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 31:27

Right. And so often that repair piece requires vulnerability. And that vulnerability, if you weren't able to be vulnerable in your childhood or you were able to express your emotions and feelings, it becomes a little bit harder to do that in adult relationships.

SPEAKER_01: 31:45

Makes perfect sense. You had going back to the technique of like you have people with the hand and the fist, right? I'm wondering if there's other simple things that somebody could try at home to kind of understand what we're talking about beyond.

SPEAKER_02: 31:56

Yeah, yeah. Well, first, I I do have a free downloadable guide if for anybody that's listening, and I'll give you the link if it if you don't already have it. And it's my beginner's guide to somatic healing, and it has a lot of these exercises. But really, there's there's two things that I I would encourage people to do. One is think about things that help you feel present and and make you happy, right? And and even write a list, and it's in my guide, but you could also do this on your own of you know, sometimes like in the middle of the day, if I have a lot of Zoom calls, I need to go out and walk, right? And that, and I might even, this is gonna sound really corny, but I might even stop and smell the roses.

SPEAKER_01: 32:44

Like literally.

SPEAKER_02: 32:46

Literally, literally, because it slows down our nervous system, right? So there's so you want to create a list of things that help regulate your nervous system. And sometimes what we need to do is provide activation before we can come down. So maybe you go for a run or you go to the gym and you lift weights, and then you can cut, and then you come down and you rest and digest. And what that would look like is something that we kind of touched on earlier is just sitting in the chair, like or lying on your bed when you come home from working out, and just feeling where your body is making contact with the chair or the couch and feeling its support and noticing, turning inward and noticing those sensations that we're experiencing. That shows, not tells your nervous system that it is safe to come down more into a parasympathetic nervous rest and digest state. If you're angry, pushing against a wall or having somebody and pushing against their arms or hands and coming back. But again, checking in with the sensations. That's really the key. And it's hard for a lot of people to do that. If that is hard, what I recommend people do is what we call orienting. So just sitting there and just looking around the space that you're in and slowing your nervous system down and allowing your eyes to land on something that's pleasant, whether it's a plant on your desk or in your room, or a picture of a memory of a great trip that you went on with your family. These are ways to show your nervous system that it is safe to be in the present moment.

SPEAKER_01: 34:42

I think that's such a powerful concept for people to try. Yeah. It doesn't even take a whole lot of time. You're talking like maybe like five minutes, 10 minutes to just literally ground yourself in a way that works for you.

SPEAKER_02: 34:55

Yeah. Yeah. Or if you are into yoga or, you know, other kind of relaxation type exercise classes, again, go inward and feel the sensations and just stay with it. Because if you stay with whatever the sensation you're feeling, 99% of the time it will dissipate. Very rarely that it gets greater, it increases. Sometimes it might increase a little bit, or you know, it might go up and down a little bit, but over time it will dissipate. And if you do that and check in with your nervous system once or twice a day, you will feel less anxious and you will have more resilience. It's about building the capacity to have more resilience in your nervous system.

SPEAKER_01: 35:55

Yeah, I love that. Building the capacity for resilience. And what does that look like? And how can it shape your life moving forward? I think is a really good takeaway is like, how do we make this work for people?

SPEAKER_02: 36:05

Yeah. Well, you when you're and when we're present, we can feel more joy and more happiness, and and and we can be more present with the people that are in our lives. So, and and we feel that, right? And and we are wired for connection. As humans, we're wired for connection. So we need that connection.

SPEAKER_01: 36:28

So good. So good. We'll get that free guide into the show notes so people have it, because I think it'll be important. Listen to the show, give it a try, see what it looks like. If you want to learn more, we'll put all of your contact information in the show notes as well. But before I let you go, Lori, I'm just really curious. What's one thing you've learned about yourself through your journey?

SPEAKER_02: 36:49

Well, the that could be a whole separate podcast, Jay. Good, let's tease it.

SPEAKER_01: 36:55

Just give me a headline and maybe we'll have you back.

SPEAKER_02: 36:58

You know, I I think the biggest thing in terms of this topic is uh, and you know, this isn't original or anything, but you know, it's really uh our we're constantly growing and learning. And and I've heard you say on your podcast before, change is the only constant, except for change is very scary for so many of us. And and you can only move as fast as your nervous system will allow you to. So if as long as we're all just taking small steps towards a better life, a happier life, the life we desire, whether that's you know more connection with your existing family or divorcing or making new friends or trying new hobbies, as we're all empty nesters and have, or not empty nesters, we're free birds, right? Where we have the freedom to create this incredibly beautiful second or third chapter or act of our lives, just make small steps towards that. And it's a journey, it's not a destination. And I used to hate that, but it's true. And you know, we're we're all complex creatures, but and be kind to yourself, and you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 38:22

Little patience and grace goes a long way.

SPEAKER_02: 38:24

Yeah, yeah, and we're all right where we're supposed to be.

SPEAKER_01: 38:29

That is good. And then every step has purpose to get you to the next spot.

SPEAKER_02: 38:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 38:34

So good, folks. Lori's memoir, Sandwiched, a memoir of holding on and letting go, is available wherever you can find books. Lori, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show.

SPEAKER_02: 38:43

Yeah, thank you, Jay, and I look forward to having you on my podcast as well.

SPEAKER_00: 38:47

I look forward to it. Thank you for listening to this emptiness life. Remember, this chapter isn't an ending, it's an invitation to redefine, rediscover, and reignite your life. If today's episode sparks something in you, don't forget to take that first step and visit this emptynesslife.com and click work with me to get the conversation started. Until next time, keep your heart open, your mind curious, and your spirit shining. This Empty Nest Life is a production of Impact One Media LLC. All rights reserved.