Speaker 1: 0:00

You take the time to ask the question what do we want? What is this relationship for? And I recommend couples do this at any significant milestone in their relationship a new job, a move, having kids, kids reaching a certain age because we all are growing and changing all the time. We may not be growing and changing in intentional ways that are leading us in the direction we need, but we're as humans. We're continually evolving all the time. Nothing stays the same in a human being.

Speaker 2: 0:32

Welcome to this Empty Nest Life. Join Jay Ramsden as he leads you on a transformative journey through the uncharted seas of midlife and empty nesting. If you're ready to embark on this new adventure and redefine your future, you're in the right place. Here's your host, the Empty Nest Coach, Jay Ramston.

Speaker 3: 0:51

Well, I am so excited for today's episode of this Empty Nest Life because I get to welcome not only a friend but an author who is just written a book. It's out maybe a couple of months. It's called F it up for secrets to reigniting intimacy and joy in your relationship, and I can't wait to get into that with my good friend Carolyn sharp. Welcome to the show, my friend.

Speaker 1: 1:15

Thank you so much for having me. It's so good to see you. It's so good to get to connect.

Speaker 3: 1:19

I know it's been a couple of years since we first met and when you had, like, you got this book rolling, I was like, oh, this is an amazing opportunity for us to have a conversation. Right, how does like, empty nesting and relationships go together? I'm just curious, like. My very first question is what was the impetus like why now? Why this book? What drove you to like put it down on paper and get out there? It's an important topic.

Speaker 1: 1:49

I would say that I mean we met when I was in the development of the program that is the foundation of the book. The Fired Up Marriage Accelerator is my coaching program that helps couples build healthy relationships regardless of what stage they're at in their relationship. And so I have a very good friend who is an editor and a publisher and she and her business partner said to me this needs to be a book. I was talking to them over drinks, I think, and talking to them about their relationships and relationships in general, and they said we need to write your book, we need to, we need to publish your book. And I was like, what book? I don't have a book. And they were like, yeah, you do.

Speaker 1: 2:28

And so I got the fantastic opportunity to work with my very best friend of 30 some years. She was my editor and my book coach and we'd meet every week and I had to present chapters to her and then she gave me feedback and it was this beautiful process that was so much fun. It was fun but also miserable at the same time, as only good friends can do make you miserable while it being so much fun. Two years, I mean, when we met, I was working on my book. It was in the process of getting her a chapter every two weeks, so I knew it was going to be published at some point, or I hoped it was going to be published at some point. It still had to go through the editorial.

Speaker 3: 3:18

Yeah, you know, what I love about that story is that it almost parallels like. The Emptiness Journey is like oh, we didn't even know we were supposed to be doing things until somebody points it out. And so here we are pointing out that you should have written a book, and hopefully we'll figure out how that all connects with my empty nest, not audience. But I, what I like about this book is like the fire piece. And right, you talk about the components of what you need for a fire, right, which is like you need ignition, you need kindling, you need oxygen. What's what one is like the piece that's most missing for people in their relationships that you find is there one, is it a combination?

Speaker 1: 3:57

it depends. It really varies by couple, and often the couple thinks it's one thing, they think it's the ignition, they think that the spark has gone and that's the biggest problem. We don't feel the spark and it's true they don't have a spark. But the real issue is often the oxygen piece, which is that deep acceptance of each other, understanding of, before eroded away, the connection and the spark that they needed. Or it's a fuel thing, that kindling thing where their communication has completely broken down, which so happens, so often happens with parents. So it is hugely an empty nest thing where, in the empty nest phase, couples wake up and go who are we? Who are you? I only know you as a co-parent. I haven't taken the time over the last 20 years to know you as a person, and so we have to, we have to figure this out.

Speaker 3: 4:57

Yeah, yeah, and that's a big thing, right, great, divorce is something that is prevalent and growing in society because of that exact same thing. So I'm thinking through it. Right, so the fire is the communication piece. That's how you see. It's like a direct connection, like you see communication as the fuel right, the fuel, not the fire. Right the fuel to it, the oxygen. What would be the equivalent of the oxygen? Does it vary by couple?

Speaker 1: 5:30

Well, it's sort of knowing who you are as a, who my partner is as a person, and so knowing that you know your uh, love for, uh, you know, very specific routine comes from the calm it brings you in in sort of starting your day in that very orderly way, for example, making something up off the top of my head. It's understanding the reason beneath the things that you do, because couples regularly focus on why did you put that there? What is that doing there, rather than what was going on for you at the moment, that you put it in a place that doesn't belong. And helping couples be more curious with one another is one of the most exciting things I get to do, because when they do, all these light bulbs start going off, all these flashes, sparks start happening and they rediscover each other.

Speaker 3: 6:19

Yeah, that rediscovery piece. And folks, just so you know, carolyn is not just a coach, she's a therapist turned coach. So this is like an important piece for you to keep in mind, is like she's comes at it from lots of different angles and in this piece, like that whole, like who am I now?

Speaker 3: 6:35

Yes, Right, but also who is my partner now is like yeah, exactly Right, because couples are made up of individuals, right, right, and some individuals grow and change as you raise kids and, like, some people want to change and grow and others don't. So what does that mean for a relationship? So how do you rebuild a healthy foundation again?

Speaker 1: 7:00

You take the time to ask the question what do we want? What is, what is this relationship for? And I recommend couples do this at any significant milestone in their relationship a new job, a move, having kids, kids reaching a certain age because we, we all are growing and changing all the time, because we all are growing and changing all the time. We may not be growing and changing in intentional ways that are leading us in the direction we need, but we're, as humans, we're continually evolving all the time. Nothing stays the same in a human being, nothing stays the same in a human relationship, and that is the source of where so much conflict and disconnection comes in, because we're not tracking that you're changing and growing, I'm changing and growing, our life's changing and growing and we're not encouraging our relationship to evolve with it. We're just sort of, you know, being by the seat of our pants and not tending to it in the ways we need to Right Welcome to parenting right by the seat of your pants.

Speaker 3: 8:01

Right Then the relationship kind of continues down that path by the seat of your pants. Right then the relationship kind of continues down that path by the seat of your pants.

Speaker 1: 8:06

Interesting, yeah, because the human we have never turns out to be. You know the experience parenting never ends up being what we thought it was going to be, because it's not a human being in our control. You know, we, whatever set them up in this way and they do with it things that are totally out of our control. They, you take them to baseball and they become a tennis player. You know, it's like it's all by the seat of our pants.

Speaker 3: 8:31

Okay, so if it is by the seat of the pants right, what are some initial steps that couples could take to figure out or assess? You know what's going on with the fire in my relationship.

Speaker 1: 8:44

I think first is looking at what's. Where are we? What is happening for us? So, if the fire has gone out, what else is at play?

Speaker 1: 8:54

You know, the key thing that I teach about is having curiosity. There's sort of a epidemic of judgment that's going on that we conclude, based on one factor in a human being, that they think a certain way, vote a certain way, look a certain way, and that that now we have our answer, their X or their Y. We do the same thing with our partners, we do the same thing with our relationships, and so to bring in curiosity of what else is going on, what else is happening, are we talking to each other regularly? Are we having fun together regularly? Do we feel understood? Do we feel seen? Do we feel appreciated? Do we feel loved? All the things that are needed in a healthy relationship. Are you feeling satisfied as an individual? Is there more I could do to support you in becoming your best self?

Speaker 1: 9:45

Mutually having that conversation? That's key to. You know, every couple that comes in, you know, wants to. You know who jumped to the, to the ignition part, to the fire spark part, and I, you know it's. It's laid out the way it is so that they get all the material. And you know, that's the, that's the truth. When the spark dies, when the fire goes out, it's. You know, we don't always know, we rarely know what is actually at the root, and so it takes some, it takes a lot of curiosity and openness to discovering what's really at play here.

Speaker 3: 10:20

Yeah, Is. Is that the key? Is the curiosity piece, Because the whole idea of like being heard and understood, I think, is probably a tough concept for most people who are, you know, been married for 25, 30, 35 years.

Speaker 1: 10:35

The three C's that I teach curiosity compassion and a desire for connection, being the leaders in a healthy relationship. So it's sort of a blend of those three. But if I had to, you know, if I had to pick one, you made me pick one. It would probably be curiosity To be interested in something beyond what is on the surface, what is obvious, what we already know because you live with someone for 20 years. With the obvious, what we already know because you live with someone for 20 years, there's a lot you know.

Speaker 1: 11:08

But that leads us to automate each other and then take each other for granted. Our brains just go on automatic pilot of he likes sugar in his coffee. What if that changed over time as our taste buds grow and evolve? Maybe you don't like your coffee as sweet as you used to, but we just do the same thing over and over again because that's what we've trained each other to do and it kills that curiosity, which is the basis for anything healthy and the basis for any good dialogue is being curious yeah, okay, so let's walk through some.

Speaker 3: 11:40

I think, or my listeners are probably wondering, okay. So if I want to start this, like what, what are some basic, just some basic questions, because it seems like it could be an overwhelming task to be like okay, I'm curious and I want to ask this question, but it seems like it's too deep. What are some surface level questions I could ask to kind of get going?

Speaker 1: 11:58

What's one thing I could do that would make you happier in our relationship. Okay, one thing that I could do that would make you happier in our relationship. Okay, one thing that I could do that would be more fun in our relationship of. Happier seems too big and overarching Cause. I could see that, like you know that, that leading to maybe a can of overwhelming worms. But you know one thing that would feel more fun to you in our relationship?

Speaker 3: 12:20

More fun. Okay, I like that one that I think that's probably could be rather approachable for folks. Yeah, the other one perhaps it is more of a can of words like happier Right, assuming that you're happy in the first place, right.

Speaker 1: 12:34

Yeah, I mean hopefully, but we can always be happier, we can always be more satisfied and fulfilled and all that sort of stuff, but it is, it's a big question that leads to potential minefields.

Speaker 3: 12:47

Right, okay. So the piece about finding joy in your relationship as you get older how might people approach that?

Speaker 1: 12:59

Asking, not taking for granted that something is still fun. Not taking for granted that something is still fun. So you have had a subscription to a theater or you've been seasoned ticket holders to the Red Sox, for example which why would anybody ever give that up? But anyway, if you, you have something you've always done together asking the question do you still love going?

Speaker 2: 13:26

to see plays.

Speaker 1: 13:29

Is there something that would be more fun than that? Do you want to keep doing that next year, or do you want to do something new?

Speaker 3: 13:36

Yeah, I love that, carolyn. That seemed more approachable. It's like take something you already know and then ask is it still valid. I was like take something you already know and then ask is it still valid, as opposed to just asking a question that could be so encompassing that you're not sure what the answer would be. But I love that approach. It's like oh you know, we like to go to the movies once a month. Do you still like to do that? Would you like to do it more? Would you like to do it less? Would you like to Got it?

Speaker 1: 14:03

Okay, well, even this, even this line of questioning, comes to knowing your partner and knowing what kind of questions does your partner like. Because I love a big, open-ended question. I love the juicy like what would make you happier. It's like, ooh, I need to think about that and all that sort of stuff. Some people go, you know, their eyes get big If they get overwhelmed and they shut down.

Speaker 1: 14:26

Other people like, uh, closed ended questions. Do you like the? Do you like the theater? Do you like the movies? You know like they like those sort of closed ended questions that help them come to an answer. Other people don't like those because they feel too limited or they feel, you know, peppered. You know, then you get peppered with bang, bang, bang, bang bang. Six questions about that. It's like Whoa, that's too much, too many questions.

Speaker 1: 14:50

And so this is something where sort of the number one thing I would say, back behind all the questions, is having couple, having the couple look at each other when they're doing this process.

Speaker 1: 15:02

Because you know, in a 20 year marriage where we're raising kids, where we're managing a household, we're doing a lot of stuff in parallel and we're not spending a lot of time seeing each other and we miss so much of communication. You know, I think, at the most, verbal communication represents 30% of what's actually being communicated. The rest is nonverbal. It's our facial expression, it's our body language, it's our gestures, it's our energy, it's our volume. It's all of these things that are not the words that we're using, and couples miss it. And so I encourage people to sit across from each other on the couch or the table and ask these questions, while looking at each other and see does your partner like that question, or do they seem freaked out, or do they seem excited that you're asking? So that you know what's up and get curious of you know, it seems like that question rubbed you the wrong way. Tell me about what's going on for you.

Speaker 3: 15:59

Got it. What happens if somebody says to you I don't even think I know my partner anymore, I don't even know, Like I couldn't even ask that question. What do I do?

Speaker 1: 16:10

Well, do you want to know your partner is always my next question, and I love it. Ask that. I get asked that all the time. Any couple can resuscitate a relationship as long as they both want to. That is, that is the truth. Any marriage can be saved short of violence. There's violence, relationship needs to end. But any relationship can be saved as long as both people want to and want to do the work or willing to do the one. Because our, our self-work is, you know, no fun. Going to gym not not the best time ever for most people or many people, so doing that work doesn't have to be fun. But, um, they should want to improve their relationship, right, want to?

Speaker 3: 16:54

Yeah, nobody's out there like, oh, I want to do stuff to improve myself, right?

Speaker 1: 16:59

I mean, there are some of us that are a little weird that way we really love you know getting real uncomfortable in a meditation or in therapy or whatever Exactly.

Speaker 3: 17:09

You're getting somebody asked me the hard question, please. But yeah, for people who don't even know how to approach it, I think it's like yeah, first, do you want to like, do you both still want to be married? Great. Then the next question is how do you get to know each other again, right, and find that spark of attraction and passion? I think what you talk about a little bit is like that spark of attraction and passion. What does that look like now, right? So what are some creative and practical ways that people could figure that out?

Speaker 1: 17:39

Well, taking what is called in Buddhism, beginner's mind of like. You know your example that you use if someone's like I don't even know my partner anymore, great, now you just wipe the slate clean. I don't know anything about. I feel like I don't know anything about. I feel like I don't know anything about you right now. Tell me everything. Tell me what lights you up, what makes you happy. Make it fun, make it light.

Speaker 1: 18:01

If you haven't been spending a lot of time in deep connection recently, take it in small chunks. You don't need to, like, sit down and do a marathon session of let's talk about everything, let's figure everything out. That's no good and space that in alternated between these conversations and doing something you enjoy. Take turns doing things that your partner enjoys. Like, if you're referring to, I'm going to do whatever it is you want to do, from skydiving to eating sushi, whatever it is, I'm going to do it with you. You know and and and. Take turns doing that. Okay, the skydiving was a little crazy, that's that. You know, requires someone jumping out of a plane? Maybe not that, but you know you. You see what I'm saying, that you take the time to do things with each other that the other person enjoys because one part of our brain is very satisfied talking. Other parts need to be doing. You're going to get to know different parts of each other by doing stuff together.

Speaker 3: 18:58

Yeah, I love that. I love that. It's good advice. Um, I think in your book you talked a little bit about your own personal struggles with relationships, and so how did those challenges kind of make your way and make their way into the work that you do in this book and how you help couples?

Speaker 1: 19:17

I think the statistic is something like 97% of helping professionals come from some sort of difficult background. So I am no exception. I have trauma in my history and I have done the work to heal that trauma. But that planted the seed of in me of knowing it doesn't need to be that way, it doesn't this way, it doesn't need to be, um, this painful. Uh, if I had had. I sort of had an inkling that you know. For example, I went to boarding school in the Northeast and was bullied, hazed, excluded, and I knew it was not right that you shouldn't treat people like that. And so I had that inkling of this isn't right, this doesn't need to be this way. There need to be adults sort of guiding these teenagers in doing better, because this isn't it wasn't healthy for me.

Speaker 1: 20:11

It wasn't healthy for the people being mean to me. It's not what they need to develop healthy relationship skills. I feel sorry. Honestly. I feel sorrier for those kids than for me, because I actually recognized what I wanted to be and and didn't get anything good and taught me to. It gave me the career that I have. So it that planted the seed of it doesn't need to be like this. There are resources and ways that relationships and life can be better, and so I thought about learning deeper. You know that curiosity thing. I was deeply curious about people and why things happen the way they do. You know I studied sociology and why communities form the way they do, and that curiosity led me to my career of wanting to help people have better lives through healthier relationships.

Speaker 3: 21:01

Yeah, I think you're right. Right, like we all, we're humans, everybody has trauma. And it's like what do we do about it and how do we, how do we like foster that as we move forward in life? And I think for you know, at least for empty nesters you get to this point and like, look at each other and like what does that mean Right For me now? Right, yeah, there's history there, but also there's also some future to it too. It's like what do you want that future to look like for yourself? What do you want it to look like together? You know, what does life look like for the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years?

Speaker 1: 21:33

Yeah, and what do we want as a couple? And that's one of the key pieces. You know, the foundational piece of relationships is having that purpose of our relationship, which not very many couples do Maybe we do it at our marriage vows but sort of defining what is this relationship for and creating a sort of a mission statement of what we're doing this for, what the purpose of this relationship is for, because that helps guide us through the hard parts of finding out we don't agree, we don't align about whatever money or religion or whatever it is. It helps us work through it because we have that purpose that we're shooting for.

Speaker 1: 22:12

And when a huge life change like empty nesting comes along, where you've been devoting all this energy for all these many years, comes along and all of a sudden everything changes, you don't have that to focus on. Your identity shifts, all of that stuff. We need to reevaluate. What are we doing as a couple? What's our focus now? What's our project now? And it's a really powerful process for couples to go through and one of the ones that I see couples sort of grow from the most is getting clear about that.

Speaker 3: 22:43

Right, yeah, and that I think you talk. It's a good segue, because you talk about how you support parents, which ultimately supports kids, right? So if you can figure out your own shit, then maybe your kids will know how to figure out their shit, right?

Speaker 1: 23:00

Yeah, they'll know that conflict isn't something to be feared, that it's okay to make mistakes, that it's okay to admit mistakes and say you're sorry, that that's a really healthy, brave, and say you're sorry, that that's a really healthy, brave, generous thing to do. All of these things, you know, lead to growth in children when they see healthy relationships modeled.

Speaker 3: 23:23

Yeah, how does that actually work for people, though, like it seems like a pretty big and daunting task to take on, like if you're like oh, we recognize something's wrong, we want to fix it and oh, by the way, we're supposed to model that.

Speaker 1: 23:38

Right, yeah, you know you don't want to be looking at the whole the big, big picture and everything that's at stake there of like, oh God, you know we're. We're not only in this conflict with each other, of like really being pissed off at each other for forgetting the lemons that I asked you to bring, or, you know, not not telling me I looked pretty, or whatever it is that the hurt feelings are about. Not only do we have to get through that, but we need to. We need to be mindful of what it's teaching our children. Yeah, I don't recommend anybody be focused on all of that at once, Cause that's yeah, it's overwhelming. That's just the byproduct of you do a good job as a couple. You're teaching something really intense and amazing to your children.

Speaker 3: 24:19

Yeah, so folks go slow to go fast. Right, you don't have to do all the big things, just even trying can be modeling.

Speaker 1: 24:27

Well, so many couples have stayed married for their kids but they end up going all right, well, we're just going to get through this school and then we'll get divorced and they shut their relationship down in essence, and it's such a shame in all the ways. You know, I would much rather, as a, as a marriage therapist and as a child and family special that was my specialty, that's what I focused on in grad school uh, I would much rather couples get divorced than stay in an unhappy, unhealthy relationship, because it is not good for children to see that and to learn that that. This is what relationships are it's unhappiness, it's conflict, it's, you know, unhealthy conflict.

Speaker 3: 25:09

Right, yeah, and I think that's a good point. And often people do right, they feel like they get stuck in a certain situation and they then they stay staying together. And oftentimes it's they stay together because of monetary reasons, right, or they're in a state where if they got split, it would be 50, 50. And one person's like, well, I've done X and then I don't want to get 50 away, so they stay together as a marriage of convenience financially, instead of making that split.

Speaker 1: 25:37

Well, and it's that that doesn't. I understand that. But the choice to let the relationship go completely dead, where they're not working on it anymore, because we've decided we're not really, we're not really a marriage, you guys are still. You're still in relationship with one another and you can still have greater health, even if you've decided the romantic, you know life partnership is over, even as you stay living together. I've helped lots of couples go through that transition of like all right, we can't afford to get divorced, financially, physically, we can't, we can't do it. So, all right, let's figure out how to do this living together thing in a way that has integrity and has health for everybody, yeah, so what does that look like?

Speaker 3: 26:22

Integrity and health in a relationship that doesn't have fire anymore?

Speaker 1: 26:27

It involves honesty, being honest and creating safety for honesty, because people, when they talk about or they hear about honesty, they think honesty is just me being honest with you. But it also requires you being receptive to my honesty, you being supportive of my honesty. Because the truth is, as humans, we often want the information we want more than we want honesty. So if I cook you dinner and I ask you, and I go to lots of trouble and I ask you do you like it? I'm not sure I actually want you to be honest with me. I want you to, and I go to lots of trouble and I ask you do you like it? I'm not sure I actually want you to be honest with me. I want you to tell me it's delicious. That's a silly example, but there are lots of those examples in our everyday life. And so a couple or a partnership whatever form that partnership takes, looking at, have we built honesty into our relationship? Are we honest with one another? And we have? Have we encouraged honesty in one another?

Speaker 1: 27:22

Honesty in our kids as well, because you know, do you, do you want your kids to be honest about how the test went, or do you want them to tell you it was great. It was great, I did great. Did you do all your homework? What do you want to hear? The answer, you know. Do you want to hear no, I only did half and then I got tired and I got on my, my device. Parents don't want to hear that.

Speaker 1: 27:51

Right so yeah, it's like being open to hear everything, relationship where you're no longer working on the spark. You can be honest, you can still be kind, you can still be curious, you can still be connected, even though you're not connected in the way that you once were uh, kind connected curious.

Speaker 3: 28:09

Yeah, yeah, I love those, I love those. Now you, we're gonna pivot off the book a little bit. It's all fascinating good stuff. I want to like you just made a big move across the country, you. You're an empty nester yourself, right, your kids are off, yep.

Speaker 1: 28:24

This fall was our last. Our last kid launched.

Speaker 3: 28:27

Yeah, and so what have you learned about yourself and your empty nest life and relationships?

Speaker 1: 28:33

Since we're on the topic of relationships, Well, and I'm you know, it's important to acknowledge I'm both a biological parent and a step parent. So I have one biological daughter and I have three stepchildren and it's stepchild biological child, no stepchild, stepchild, biological child, stepchild. So we went through the process and I saw through the process of my husband moving kid number one and kid number two. I experienced it as a separate. I mean, I claim all four kids as my own, even though I'm not biologically the parent of those stepkids. They have a wonderful mom, they're still mine, they're still mine, I love them. Um, and I don't really differentiate all that much on my kids. But it's a different process launching stepchildren than it is launching biological children and so I have different answers to that. I mean it's been, you know, when the stepkids, the first two stepkids, left, there was loss but there was also relief. You know it was, you know, and it was COVID time when the first two college and yeah, we could, we could, we could spend a lot of time talking about that.

Speaker 3: 29:44

It's a whole nother show.

Speaker 1: 29:47

And so there was relief because there was all kinds of fear. So there's there's grief, there's relief, there's freedom. That comes from, you know, our, our first daughter was a performer, and so there were choir and guitar concerts all the time. Our second daughter, uh, is a rower and, um, very, she's a D one rower. She's, you know, a national world rower.

Speaker 1: 30:14

Um, so there was lots and lots and lots of crew um regattas that we were going to, so it was very busy, and so at each kid launching, it was like, okay, we got one hour back from our week or two hours back from our week. So there was relief, and so, recognizing how much I had put my own needs on the back burner to support these lives, which I wouldn't trade for anything, and I know all of your parents would say the same, but it is a oh boy excitement, about having free time to do things more for myself and a little bit of oh God, I haven't really looked at that part of my life Ooh, what's under the opening that closet door and all of the crap falling out of it.

Speaker 1: 31:04

Um, so I've learned that about myself, that I'd stuffed a bunch of shit um, on the back burner that I really needed to tend to for myself. Um, and then when my daughter went to college, it was she has anxiety and that was the dropping her off at college was a trauma that I sort of anticipated, did not anticipate. I mean, I think that that's the story of so many that really expect the shit to come up that comes up when we launch our kids. Um, and so there was deeper. You know, the tie was cut a little bit from that biological child her being on her own, many, many miles away and having struggling and not being able to be right there to help her. Um was I didn't realize quite how I won't use the word enmeshed because it has such a negative kind of yeah, I get it to her success and functioning, and having to let go is a that's a situation yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think that's true for a lot of parents, right?

Speaker 3: 32:16

um, enmeshed is a good word because we are that way with some of our kids more than others and we love all of our kids equally, but some we do get more enmeshed with than others, just based upon who they are and how they've grown up and the things that they've learned and what they can handle and what they can't handle. Yeah, interesting, interesting.

Speaker 1: 32:36

Well, we moved at the same time that our last kid launched, and so it was this extraordinary. There was a flavor of adventure and acknowledgement that we were embarking on this extraordinary adventure of moving all the way across the country from Seattle to north of Boston. So, and a totally different culture, a totally, you know, new town, new everything. So it was like, you know, throwing everything up in the air and seeing what's going to be on the other side.

Speaker 3: 33:04

Yeah, yeah, we did the same thing my daughter's senior year of college. We moved south of Boston. So, yeah, yeah, and and while it was exciting for us and we figured she was okay at Rector, we didn't know it at the time but at Rector, right, right, because they, our kids, want to make sure that we're happy too as much as we want to make sure that they're happy, and so those dynamics are another interesting piece to just kind of keep an eye out for, yeah, as your kids are launching and looking at where they're going and whether you're going to make a change, and people ask me that question all the time. It's like, ooh, you know, should we sell our house and move? Like, well, it depends what all of your relationships are like, right, what?

Speaker 3: 33:44

does it look like for you.

Speaker 1: 33:46

Yep, well, and all four of our kids felt very differently. I mean, at that point all of the kids are going to be scattered around the country. We have a kid in Montana, nashville, austin, texas and Philadelphia, and so sort of like, well, we can go anywhere, and just took for granted the four different reactions we were going to get about moving to a totally new town and we're not in a big city, you know, we're not in.

Speaker 1: 34:10

Boston where they can go out and do anything. You know they are. We are car dependents. We're miles away from anything, and so there's definitely different reactions and feelings about where we live and selling the childhood home and all of those, all of those things, all of those things, all good stuff, though, you know, on this emptiness journey.

Speaker 3: 34:31

So, as you're going through your emptiness journey, I mean, what's, what's one thing you've learned about yourself?

Speaker 1: 34:37

I need to balance my drive to be of service and to be high performing with a real need for rest and regeneration. You know it was pedal to the pedal, for, you know, my daughter's whole life and I was a single parent for a period of time in there between my first marriage and my second, and so I was the sole provider and all of that sort of stuff, and so it was peddled in the metal for 18 years and when, you know, in the empty nesting process, realized all right, I need to do a better job of balancing these two parts of myself, the part that really loves to be of service and to perform, and the part of me that really needs quiet me, time, rest, Right, yeah, that's.

Speaker 3: 35:31

I love that. That's a realization and I think oftentimes people feel it but they don't realize it. So they feel stuck and they're not sure what's keeping them stuck. Yep.

Speaker 1: 35:40

Well, it took me. It was not an easy uh resolution. I mean, I knew I would be a little lost when, when Margaret went to college, I didn't. It stunned me, still stuns me, how lost I was for a period of time and what it, what it actually was that, that very neat sentence I just gave you. She's been in college for two and a half years, so I can now answer that question easily, right, right.

Speaker 3: 36:05

Which I think is tough for people to answer the question and it's like, ooh, I do feel lost. Now what, now what Now? Now now what just for me? But now, what for me, now for my relationship with my partner, all those questions, it's like it can feel like a heavy burden yeah, it can if we let it.

Speaker 1: 36:26

I mean, I think that curiosity thing, as well as that compassion thing that I was talking about earlier, helps us through that taking that anything is possible and that could be overwhelming. But it's also really exciting, if we let it be, that, that you can discover anything about yourself. You can do anything now with these extra hours in the day, and that is overwhelming. But what comes to mind when you allow yourself to dream about what might be possible in these empty hours?

Speaker 3: 36:54

Yeah, so good Cause your kids are doing the same thing. They're trying to figure it out Right Like what's possible? What path am I going to go down? What is life going to look like for me? Who am I going to meet? What job am I going to have? We can still ask those questions of ourselves.

Speaker 1: 37:08

Absolutely.

Speaker 3: 37:09

Right. So just to kind of wrap things up a little bit like, what with the book Fired Up? What do you hope people get out of reading it?

Speaker 1: 37:19

that a healthier relationship is always possible, that all relationships need work. Uh, that that I should have said that first, really, because there is all of this mythology that if you really love each other you shouldn't have to work at it. Uh, you know, if it's really your true love, it should take care of itself and that's all bullshit. Um, a healthy relationship, like anything else we care about, needs work. So that is the number one thing I sort of hammer at people all the time so that they not get freaked out if their relationship stalls. Let's look at have you been working at it? No, okay, well, that's why it's stalling. You can. You can revive it. So a healthy relationship is always possible. And, yeah, those three things bringing curiosity, compassion and prioritizing a connection with each other, rather than prioritizing winning, getting what you want being right the way human beings right now are really over-focusing on that other thing.

Speaker 3: 38:18

Yeah, yeah, it could be, because it's a partnership, right, like it's a both, and I look at it as both and and I imagine you probably do is like you have to figure out what you want and you have to go after what you want in life and hope that your spouse is the same thing, but you also need to come together and do things together and figure out how you work together as individuals and as a couple.

Speaker 1: 38:38

Yeah, you can't have a healthy relationship without two healthy individuals, and in a secure, healthy relationship, both people are encouraging their partner to find what lights them up, makes them happy, because when you're lit up we're going to have a better connection when you're bored and lost and resentful and tired. So I should be encouraging you to, like you know, get lit up and same with with you. For me, yeah.

Speaker 3: 39:04

Get lit up, and the way that you get lit up is get this book, fire it up. Where's it available, carolyn? Everywhere, everywhere, and well it's it won't.

Speaker 1: 39:16

It won't be. I was going to say there's a special out now for the ebook, but in May, when this comes out, it will not be. It won't be live. So Amazon, barnes and Noble bookshoporg my favorites uh, support an indie bookstore while buying books. Um, they're all.

Speaker 3: 39:33

it's everywhere, it's everywhere. I love that folks go get it. It's the way to not only fire up your relationship, to light it up again too. And, carolyn, where can people find you if they want to learn more about you and your work?

Speaker 1: 39:45

I am on secure connections coaching on Instagram, secure connections coach on TikTok because I had a limit on the number of letters, and just Carolyn sharp on Facebook and on LinkedIn if they want to, and my website is secureconnectionsretreatscom.

Speaker 3: 40:01

Awesome, yeah, retreats folks. Carolyn runs an amazing retreat. Did one last year in Tuscany and I heard wave reviews, so make sure you check that as well. Carolyn, it was so good to have you on the show and reconnect with you. Thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 1: 40:15

Likewise, thank you for having me.

Speaker 2: 40:19

Are you ready to start living and enjoying your empty nest years? If so, head over to jasonramsdencom and click work with me to get the conversation started. This Empty Nest Life is a production of Impact. One Media LLC. All rights reserved.