Why Community Matters Most

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I found going through my own divorce, the sum of all different people's experiences is what helped me. One of my favorite parts of my next chapter is the actual community. This was my savior. This is my therapy to determine my next step or my next strategy or how to just breathe every day.

Divorce Fears After Kids Fly

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Welcome to this Empty Nest Life, the podcast dedicated to helping you embrace this transformative season with purpose, passion, and joy. In each episode, we explore stories, strategies, and insights to help turn your empty nest into an exciting new chapter. Whether you're redefining your identity, pursuing new passions, or finding peace in the pause, you're in the right place. Here's your host, the empty nest coach, Jay Ramsden.

SPEAKER_04 0:44

Hey there, my emptiness friends. Have you or your friends experienced a divorce in your emptiness life? Are you afraid you might be headed down that path now that the kids are grown and flown? If so, stay right where you are, as today in studio I have two dynamic guests. Tamara, Frankfurt Odinek, and Sherry Joseph. They're co-founders of My Next Chapter. It's an innovative, expert-led platform and community designed to support individuals at every single stage of divorce. They're offering guidance, support, and a community for individuals seeking empowerment and healing. We're going to get into their stories, their work, and more right now. Tamara and Sherry, welcome to this empty nest life. I'm excited to have you here. It sounds funny to say that because we're talking about divorce, but I'm excited to have you here because it's not a topic that I've really hit upon just yet on this emptiness life. And I'm super interested in how you two first, how you got together, how my next chapter came to be, and what a little bit about your stories are. How did you two meet?

SPEAKER_02 1:50

So I got divorced five years ago, and it was really lonely and isolating. I was the first of my friends, family to even really contemplate divorce. And and I was just really blown away by how little there was out there for me. I had a great therapist and I and an attorney, but other than that, I really had no one to turn to. And fast forward a few years, I became the go-to. So my friends started to people were uncertain in their marriages, contemplating divorce, and people would call me saying, Can you speak to so and so? And I was like, Yes. And I always did yes to those calls. And I was like, you know what? There has to be something better. And it was around the time that I started thinking about my next chapter and building something where people could come, where they would feel less alone, community support, expert advice. And it was at that time that a mutual friend, actually a friend of mine from growing up, I had mentioned to her what I was working on. And she's like, Oh my God, you have to meet my friend Sherry. She's in the or very early in her divorce at the time I was four years out, and she's thinking about something very similar. And the two of us met.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Remember that day really well, Sherry? I do. I remember that day really well. We had such like good synergy and how we were talking about what was possible. So like I represent the much more high conflict side of divorce to marry more amicable. And which was just super helpful as we were getting together and building what was possible for us.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

We were gonna meet for 30 minutes. We wound up spending like hours literally boarding. We had whiteboards up on the wall and just started to come together.

SPEAKER_04 3:28

Okay. So you met you had this idea, and then where like where did my next chapter, like, where did the name come from? Was that because you were talking about it that way? Or was that like just an aha moment afterwards? And then like how you help people.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

Both Sherry and I come at it. It's what was amazing is we also both worked at American Express for many years, for over 10 years, and had worked in various business development and marketing and strategy roles. And so we came at it with that perspective too. So not only were we there, found the need personally, but we had the sort of tech and marketing backgrounds to do it, which was super helpful. And I've always loved to do to bring things digital to the extent that it could be scalable and uh help more people and in different places. And and I so we we knew we wanted to do something online. I had built apps before as Sherry had. And in terms of my next chapter, and just really when we saw that my next chapter was available, we're like, oh my god, we gotta grab it.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

And there's so many chapters, like it did just become natural, like nomenclature, like how we were communicating. I said, Oh, I'm starting a new one. I want to help people across every stage of the journey. And there's so many stages, and there's no journey is the same.

Serving Every Stage Of Divorce

SPEAKER_04 4:46

So is it that kind of equates to empty nesting a little bit too people think, oh, that's just a moment in time. Oh, the kids left, that's empty nest. Or we filed the papers, that's divorce. But no, there's so many different chapters that evolve over time, no matter where you are on your journey. Same is true in the divorce journey. Oh, so for those of you like you two met and Sherry, you were like, I'm considering this. So that's where often people I'm sure turn to you. We're like, Oh, I this maybe or maybe something that I'm might be doing. What do I do?

SPEAKER_02 5:15

We were surprised actually initially, because our thought was let's help people who are like navigating in it in the thick of it, who are like need help with their divorce agreement, who want the legal and finance support. And a lot of our initial content was geared there. And it's very popular, especially in the finance and legal areas. But what we found is that actually more there are many people in that marital uncertainty haven't even said, I want to get a divorce. They're just like want to understand if I did go down that path, what might it look like? And it's actually over 40% of our members who are just actively almost like preparing to decide if they're gonna get divorced. And divorce isn't always the answer. Sometimes it is, of course, and sometimes it isn't. Um, and people just need support and feel alone in that bucket, too.

SPEAKER_04 5:58

Then people are just like this might be something.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 6:02

Or they know research fees, perhaps.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Or they know that they need to leave, but they for some reason they feel like this may not be the right time. Maybe it's not good for the kid if I leave. Financially, how could that be possible to leave? So it's like really understanding. Oh, wait, is it bad for the kids if I leave? For me, for somebody in a five conflict household, it's so much healthier to go to two cum houses than to have one house where it's either icing each other out in complete silence or like such tension, the kids completely.

Marital Uncertainty And Deferred Divorce

SPEAKER_02 6:47

Yeah. And even if you're not in like a super high conflict situation, if you know ultimately it's the only way you can be happy and it's better for your well-being and you'll be a better person and parent, all of that sometimes it is the right choice. And we've been talking a lot about deferred divorce, which where people are in that marital limbo, they know, as Sherry said, ultimately they want to, but they're holding off for a lot of reasons and they actively make the decision to defer. And through that, then they need in that sort of limbo period, they want to, what's the right living situation? How do I co-parent while I'm still waiting to actually pull the trigger? So we're talking to folks in that bucket too, that are like, yes, I'm doing it, but I want to wait a year. I want to wait two years.

SPEAKER_04 7:27

That's uh why grade divorce is the single most largest growing types of people are waiting until the kids leave. That's real. And then as soon as the kids go off to college, it's like I hear it all the time. And my social feed is like, nope, they left, and now he left me or I left him, the case may be.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

And a lot of people make the decision to stay. Certainly when you're in high conflict, it doesn't make the most sense necessarily if it's unstable, but when they're it's good enough because they're like, okay, my kids are out, it'll have less impact on them. But actually, research shows that kids in their 20s who are just starting out in life actually in some ways have a harder time with it because they question everything that was true about their youth and they're forming their own identity. And if you're staying for that reason solely, it's not necessarily always the best choice. And it's something to think about.

SPEAKER_04 8:15

Oh, that makes perfect sense. Kids aren't fully developed, and they're like, Oh, I had this one vision of what marriage looks like, and now I'm getting ready to actually get into the thick of the dating world. Exactly. Whoa, whoa. Like in the work that you do, you have a huge community, right? People are looking at it. Like, how big is the community there?

SPEAKER_02 8:31

So we have thousands of members, which has been amazing. We just launched uh it last spring, and it's all word of mouth.

SPEAKER_04 8:40

Wait, stop last spring ago, and you have a thousand members over a thousand years.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

Over a thousand members, yes. And we, as I said, I mean, it's really we have it's through friends telling friends. We have an amazing uh group of experts who are the core of our platform. We have a clinical psychologist, a legal expert, finance, and they have clients that they support and small social following. So they're spreading the word that way. But apart from that, it's really it's just because we have we're out there with a desire to help people and our core membership is complimentary and people are taking advantage of it. There are very few places to find substantive real support and community or none, actually, apart from what we're doing. So as soon as people learn about it, they're like, oh my God, and we're just getting great feedback and evolving.

SPEAKER_04 9:28

It's not you too, right? No, you like, I think what was it, like six to ten experts who sit on your panel that help people in different ways.

Tools Webinars And Anonymous Support

SPEAKER_01 9:37

So when you think about my next chapter, and there's so many aspects of the journey and to my momentum, like legal and finance happens to be like a lot of people seek those topics out, especially when they're trying to get informed and ready. Um, but there's also mental health. That's such a key component, wellness, style as it relates to like your personal style, your home, like refreshing your space. So there's so many facets that we want to cover. And our content is we have great, really rich articles, we have videos, we have templates, resources, like to budget all the different like most overlooked assets. But one of my favorite parts of my next chapter is the actual community. And that's where members can connect with other members, with us, with our experts. And I found going through my own divorce, and as we were building my next chapter, this was my savior. This is my therapy. The sum of all different people's experiences is what helped me to determine my next step or my next strategy, or what I needed to or just how to just breathe. And that like the breathing exercises we have from Kristen McGee, our wellness expert, our member just shared in our community that she does them every day. Like they help keep her centered. We're doing webinars regularly, once a week, sometimes more, on different topics of interest. And our confidential confidentiality is really important to us. So when we're doing a webinar, nobody has their camera on. It's not even an option. They're completely anonymous, but they can ask anonymous questions and then we capture the content so it's available for our members' post. But we're able to help in real time as often as we can, and we're constantly involving the content too, based on needs.

SPEAKER_04 11:46

Oh, sure. And I would imagine that's evolving over time too. I'm sure like how people approach divorce or the afterlife of divorce before the pandemic was different than after the pandemic lives in general. And so the inputs I think from people are such a stressful and uh nervous system heightened experience.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

I got divorced at the beginning of the pandemic, and part of the we were contemplating it for a long time and just made the decision because it was like this pause in life where you're just sort of for and I think a lot of people say that right about emptiness or midlife, where it's like a quiet house, and there are a lot of these big questions like, okay, who am I? What do I want? And and that that sort of period provoked that for me. And I think it was it ultimately was a real opportunity. And I think now we're trying to bring some of that the content and the community to help people think about personal identity and goals and what makes them tick and how they want to spend their idle time and how they want to make decisions. We really want to we think broadly. And as I said, we were surprised about this 40% that's coming in very early. But what's happening is they're staying and they're engaging with the content. And so much runs imperiled. It takes a long time, this period of uncertainty takes a long time. And you have other, there are so many facets to life. And how can we help people as they're just thinking about their themselves and identity and opportunity?

SPEAKER_04 13:16

Yeah, when you talk about there's so many facets to it, there's also like a lot of uh stigmas around divorce as well. And probably a lot of misconceptions. So you might tell me a little bit about like what you encounter from folks that are in your on that topic.

Pandemic Pause And Identity Reset

SPEAKER_02 13:30

I'm actually really glad you asked this question because we did a study with the Harris poll, which is really compelling. We're gonna publish it soon. But it we wanted to talk to just the general population to understand the sigma associated with divorce. And what we found is that um actually the majority of people like reject divorce as failure. Like 75% plus of women don't even view divorce as failure. It's more men do, but not like the percentages differ a little bit from men. But uh particularly those who uh older women in particular would never stay after someone cheats. They disagree with giving up certain things that are important to them to avoid divorce. So we are seeing shifts uh in this perception of divorce as failure and mistakes, although of course it still exists given just society and history.

SPEAKER_04 14:18

Okay, so is that generational like boomers versus gen X versus millennials? People perceive it differently based upon the type of uh upbringing they had.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

Well, it's certainly, I think that uh the older generations grew up viewing divorce as failure, and that so that shift uh has occurred later for them, but they are shifting their mindset. I think now what we're seeing for from younger generations is just that there's some skepticism around marriage and we're seeing marriage rates decline and people are waiting longer to get married, and they're looking, they're thinking about themselves and what do they want in life and there are other ways to be happy, particularly for women who are now obviously having have a lot of different aspects of their life relative to what they did in the 50s and 60s and 70s. So we were surprised because we thought the younger generations were would be would say divorce isn't a failure, but then the older ones would still say it is. But there's been a shift across the board, um, which is exciting for us because if it's the only way to be happier and certainly to be safe and stable, like it it is the right answer. And people shouldn't be scared just because of perception.

SPEAKER_04 15:57

So with the perception piece, how do you address that in the coaching or the resources that you provide in my next chapter?

Divorce Stigma And Generational Shifts

SPEAKER_01 16:04

A lot of people are coming to us and they are the first, first of their friends, first of their family that are getting divorced. They're not alone. And there's so many people within that relate. And we have across the all of our resources, what as it relates to human finance and legal and mental health and wellness, it all like speaks to that perception of like what are the realities, what are the misconceptions that happens in divorce? And we help to educate and inform people of what it is and what it isn't. And there's so many nuances as it goes from like state to state with what's happening with divorce and and but there's an overall like how you can get the support and comfort of making a decision that is right for you, it's right for your family. If you have kids, it's right for this moment in time, and it's going to help you be your better self.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

She was in the thick of it, and I was in my next chapter, just seeing me like I was scared. I was worried I was people are gonna shun me. Look, and here I am now, and I'm okay, and people haven't. And she sees that, and like there is a lot of mentor, mentee, that experience. Naturally, and it's helped, it's helpful, right?

SPEAKER_04 17:30

Do you find people inside of the group, you may not know this, find inside of the group are actually making connections and doing things outside the group?

Guilt Shame And The Glimmers

SPEAKER_01 17:37

We do see that because we see the interactions like feel free to message me. And someone comes in and makes a comment thinking like it's so unique to them. Nobody else must have experienced this, or oh my gosh, you can't top this. No, actually, somebody is, oh my god, that's exactly what happened in my situation, or I can't top that. It's and they are seeking each other out as it relates to like how we help people.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

I think it's one area that's been hugely popular is like navigating emotions and some of the harder emotions, like around the idea of divorce, like those feelings of guilt or fear or shame or resentment, and how to live with those, but then also live with the more positive ones. And that's true for any transition, right? That you I know you talk a lot about emptiness and midlife, and like you are gonna carry those, but then there's this opportunity. And how do you live with both at once? That's been huge for us. People just appreciate the idea that just naming how they feel and knowing it's hard is still okay. Doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do or the wrong thing.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Which was so invalidating for me, especially going through it where I was like scared. My my entire system was like in stock because of like the high conflict. But also like I was excited about my next chapter. So even when you were greeting us and saying, I'm excited to meet you, but like I maybe the topics that have exciting, I found so much excitement. I call them like the glimmers of divorce, but just connecting with others in similar situations has given a new life and has given so much joy. And focusing on those joys has been empowering and powerful.

SPEAKER_04 19:15

As human beings, we always sit there and go, Oh, no one else is going through what I'm going through right now to be possible, even though it's the same topic. So I imagine that's part of what the community helps with is no, you're not alone in this, maybe slightly different, but everybody is on the same kind of path.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

Yeah, but in their town or their city or within their family, they may feel alone, right? They may feel like they're the only one who's ever had this, but we want to make them feel like they're not alone. Like we want people to find us wait, help is there and resources are available. Because it's very overwhelming.

SPEAKER_04 19:48

So I'm curious, what's what are you excited about? Which is strange again to say when you're talking about divorce, but what are you most excited about when it comes to my next chapter and the community that you're building?

SPEAKER_02 19:59

I think I'm personally excited by just the response and helping people. That's why Sherry and I both got into this to begin with. We're hearing when we hear community members say, Oh my God, you saved me this holiday, or I just the individual voices talking about the a resource we provided or an article that, or a breathing exercise that got through through a moment or a day or a week. That the idea of that and the fact that we can do that broadly is just so exciting and compelling to me. And just bringing also people, more people together in person to the extent we can.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

So I'm excited about everything we've done so far and like how this is just going to continue to evolve and just be bigger and stronger. And we're just growing, like we're continuing to grow in like our own journeys and with our members and how they are empowering, and then they become advocates for bringing others into the fold and realizing, no, come join this. There are resources available and such, because even the first thing a lot of people do is okay, call a lawyer and you look at the fees, just legal fees, and the hourly rates, and oh my goodness, it just it adds up. Like the things that we can do by providing resources and like where you don't have your lawyer being the first call for this. Let's like ground yourself in like here's what you can actually do to prepare. And here's actually the questions you should ask to make sure it's even the right lawyer for you. The resources really run the gamut, and there'll be so much more.

Life After Divorce And Dating

SPEAKER_04 21:37

Okay, let's pivot a little bit into now that you are divorced, right? Tamara, you aren't yet an empty nester, but you're on the cusp. Yes, on the cusp. And Sherry, are you in that stage right now?

SPEAKER_01 21:48

Um, I'm divorced in my next chapter, but I'm an empty nester in the sense that I'm shared custody both part-time every two to three days. I have an empty nest.

SPEAKER_04 22:02

Okay. So in this stage in life where you are both now post-divorce, you're in your next chapter, right? Both of you are like, what are you excited about that?

SPEAKER_02 22:10

Personally, for me, I'm excited, and it's been an evolution just with the divorce and with my kids getting older and being more independent and needing less from me. It's like it's just been an opportunity to challenge those familiar same patterns. And think I've been thinking like I literally going back to what did I like doing in my teens and twenties, and how do I resurrect some of that? Now that I have a little bit more idle time. How do I think about evolving myself professionally? I am dating and it's been really cool to date now, knowing who I am much more than I was in my 20s. And so it's, I would say it's an opportunity to have sort of purpose in a new way.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Yeah, I agree with so much. That except I'm not ready to date yet. I would say it's just creating stability, clarity, and freedom for my kids and for myself, and modeling what it looks like to rebuild with intention.

SPEAKER_04 23:11

Tamara, you're in the thick of it right now, dating. And Sherry, you're not. But swing over to my episode 104 Dates, How to Find Love After Divorce, which is another person that I had on the show. Great resource, Heidi Friedman. So as you move through this journey, I'm super curious what you've learned about yourself from this journey, both through divorce and launching this company.

Trusting Yourself And Building Resilience

SPEAKER_02 23:34

I've learned how to trust myself and my instincts. People used to say, trust your gut, go with your gut. And I made a lot of decisions early in my life based on what I thought I should do and what people wanted for me to do. And I realized over time that that's not necessarily what makes me as an individual happy and it's my life. And I've learned that it's okay to do what's right for you and not have to explain yourself to others and to really trust myself. And that's been huge for me. It gave me the courage to get divorced, and it's also gave me the courage to start this business and to make some of the decisions that I have as I move forward in my life.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

For me, that I'm far more adaptable than I ever gave myself credit for. Definitely. It's like the things that keep getting thrown at me, but what I've been able to do with that and find the joy in the hard I'd say adaptable, Sherry, and resilient.

SPEAKER_02 24:51

Yeah. Sherry, Sherry was given thrown a lot of punches and she just bounces back stronger.

SPEAKER_04 24:56

So yeah. Thank you. Part of your story. Um it's equivalent to the emptiness journey, like that. Transition happens. Any life transition happens, and we ask ourselves, what now? Sounds like you're both on the other side of what's next in an excited way.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

Yeah. And I I think in a lot of ways, as Sherry said, I mean, you have half the time if you share custody or some portion where you have more idle times. You're dealing with some of those decisions you would as an empty nester. But I think in general, there are so many parallels because divorce is a transition and change, and it really requires you to think about what you want and who you want to be. But a lot of people go through.

SPEAKER_04 25:30

Absolutely. Have kids, right? There's a good chance that you may get divorced, and you're definitely going to go through empty nesting. That's exactly how it works. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Yeah, absolutely. For sure. That's why we love your podcast too. Oh, I think I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_04 25:42

Before I let you go, one piece of advice that you'd give somebody who's, I think maybe this might be something for me, but I'm not quite sure.

SPEAKER_02 25:52

I would say it's okay to not be sure and don't put pressure on yourself to decide. I think just being in a position where you're like, I want to learn and figure out and think about what's right for me. That's enough. Learn about it, learn about all the different facets of it. And even just taking that step in itself is huge. And give yourself grace.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

It's a journey. Grace is key. Trusting your instincts and taking a boss, but really to just know that you're not alone. There's people out there that could relate to you. And when someone offers you the support, take it. Don't try to do it all on your own. A lot of people sometimes suffer in silence, but you don't have to do it alone.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

And you will be okay, right, Sherry? We always say that.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Oh, yes. Yes, that is true.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

Yeah, and even better and make it better or divorce, like it will be okay.

unknown 26:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

Stick with it. And a lot of our resources do speak to that too. It's not like our platform of my next chapter is just encouraging people or helping you discover is it something you should be? I have friends that have never been married, or maybe there's some that are widowed, or they find value out of what we're bringing to the table and the resources that we have just by helping them. And we and I just took our Are You Ready to Date quiz that we have a dating expert, Alyssa Denine, and I'm not, as I mentioned, and the quiz validated that for me too.

SPEAKER_04 27:29

But Tamara, Sherry, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing a little bit about your journey and a little bit about the work you do. Folks, if you're thinking about this, if this is in your kind of life or in the back of your head, go check them out at my chat my next chapter.com. And uh folks, I just I appreciate you being here and sharing a little bit of your story. Thank you.