SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Hey there, my emptiness friends. Are you struggling to create more meaning, ownership, and authenticity in this stage in life? Perhaps you're considering leaving your corporate job or just looking to start fresh now that the kids have launched. In either case, today's episode is just for you. In studio with me is Shelly McIntyre, an empowering coach and podcast host dedicated to helping midlife Gen X professionals break free from the career ladders they didn't build and rediscover their authentic selves. Through her podcast, Burn the Map, she offers sharp, actionable insights for anyone ready to create more meaning, ownership, and authenticity in this stage of life. Shelly, welcome to this emptiness life.

SPEAKER_01: 0:43

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00: 0:44

So I just I'm curious, right? You've done a lot. You've been in tech for a long time. You pivoted out, you're coaching, you have the podcast. People are wondering, all right, I'm in midlife. What what are some clear signs that it's time for a little bit of a reinvention? What would you say to somebody who's enough is enough?

SPEAKER_01: 1:01

There's so many signs that I think people have normalized and just don't pay attention to. Like they might say, well, it's normal for me to be bored at work every day, or it's normal for me to resent all of my coworkers. It's just part of the thing, right? But every piece of dissatisfaction that you have is a signal that something is amiss, that there is a value of yours that is being stomped on that maybe we could pay attention to a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00: 1:33

Well, a little bit of being out of line with our integrity, perhaps.

SPEAKER_01: 1:37

Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:38

Interesting. Okay. So that's where it starts. Oh, this is just normal. Everybody doesn't like their job. Everybody complains about their coworkers. Everybody complains about how much work they have or the company they work for. That's just normal.

SPEAKER_01: 1:51

I think that's one big thing. There, I mean, there's all these signals are going to look different in every person, right? Not everybody experiences burnout in the same way. Not everybody experiences that misalignment of their values and their true essence in the same way. So what's true for you might be different for a colleague or somebody in your family. But there is some inner voice that's speaking to you that you can hear in your quietest moments.

SPEAKER_00: 2:20

Yeah, I like that. The quiet moments. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01: 2:23

Yeah. And if we give a little space to that voice, we can hear what it's asking for from us. And so the first thing that I really encourage people to do is slow down and get quiet and name the thing that is speaking to you and asking for your attention.

SPEAKER_00: 2:45

Okay. All right. So for the person who's listening, is oh, I'm super busy. I don't have time to slow down. Wouldn't that might that be the first step? And how might they go about that?

SPEAKER_01: 2:56

Yeah, I I I love that because when people say they're super busy and they don't have time to slow down, this is already information. Like even saying that out loud is a signal to us that something is already out of alignment. If you can't take five minutes and listen to your inner voice, and then I would also ask that person, what other external signals are you getting that something is out of whack? Have you had any injuries lately? Are you getting sick a lot? Um, have you gotten into any accidents? Are your friends or family members giving you feedback? Hey, Jay, there's something going on. I don't know what it is, but you just don't seem like yourself. There's all this other evidence that we can get to if we don't feel like we have access to that inner voice. We can look, we can become data gathering machines and say, what else might be up? Is my IBS maybe related to this in some way? I'm having these knee problems, I'm not sleeping anymore. Could any of this be related to a misalignment of where I'm at in my life?

SPEAKER_00: 4:06

Yeah, I'm overtired, I'm cranky, I argue with people more than I used to. Absolutely. All kind of signs that could be pointing to, oh, maybe you are miss out of alignment with what you want to be truly doing. And those are those are clear signs. Okay. But someone who's, oh, okay, I'm get it. I I I'm figuring this out a little bit, listening to the two of you. But what do I do next?

SPEAKER_01: 4:28

So when we do, like when we do give ourselves the opportunity to listen to that inner voice, and maybe we are recognizing that something is out of alignment. I think it's really helpful to get very clear on which of your values is being stomped on. And I always, with all the people that I work with, really go back to a foundational level and start with values because we need to build a new foundation. Like we can't, we can't build the next thing on sand, right? It's got to be solid. Starting to figure out that foundation is going to put it us in very good stead for whatever might come next. And coming up with your values, it's not like looking at a list of values and saying, oh, passion, that sounds like a good one. Oh, loyalty sounds like a good one. I think that's me. We need to really do a big exploration of what you would go to the mat for if no one was watching. These are not pretty adjectives. These are real deep words that you base how you operate through the world on. All of them are behavior reinforced. Maybe you find a friend and you get together with them and say, let's do a values exploration together so that you don't have to do this in isolation because trying to come up with this stuff by yourself, it's really hard. So let's say you get together with a friend and you say, hey, let's figure out what our values are. And you find one of the many lists online. And let's say you go through and you think, okay, well, maybe these are five or 10 that look good. Then I would share stories with each other about how you know that these are your values. What have you done in your life, or what do you do consistently that reinforces that this is what you believe and that other people would know that about you by looking at you and watching how you act?

SPEAKER_00: 6:32

Okay. So I love this because it's almost similar to Simon Sinek's finding your why. Like you share stories with other people to pull out like why you do what you do, but this is taking it to that next level is well, we do what we do. There's a why to it, but also the values are underneath of it. So I love that it's oh, share a story with people and be like, oh yeah, this is an example of that value.

SPEAKER_01: 6:54

Yeah. And and the people who know you well can actually report in very easily about this. They can say, oh, Jay, yeah, loyalty is absolutely a value for you. And here's how I know. Here's how you show up with me in such a consistently loyal way. And also, like, I see this other element of joy in you. And maybe you don't see that in yourself, but there is a current of joy that runs under everything that you do and you light people up so consistently. And this type of feedback is gold, especially if you're feeling burned out and you're not feeling like yourself. You might not have access at all times to these values that you hold dear because you're in a tiny box. So talking to people who know you well can remind you of what you really care about when in those times that you forget.

SPEAKER_00: 7:53

Yeah, I think that's such a powerful reminder for folks, go down that path. But also, like for the people who are like, oh, I just want to use a tool. Is there tools that you use often that you may recommend for people to ferret out what their values may be?

SPEAKER_01: 8:06

Yeah, Brene Brown actually has a great values exercise that you can find pretty easily online. And the thing that I like about hers is that you go through and circle the values and whittle them down, and then you can talk with a friend about them. But she has you go through a next step, which is called the BS detector. And that's really inquiring as to how you know this is your value. Prove it. Like what evidence do you have in your behavior that this is your value? And if you have, if you're like tossed up between a few values and you have a big decision to make in your life, what one will be the underpinning of how you make that choice? Because a value as a tiebreaker is a great way to collect evidence about whether it's true for you.

SPEAKER_00: 8:55

Oh, yeah. What do you lean into in the moment where you're feeling the pressure?

SPEAKER_01: 9:00

That's right.

SPEAKER_00: 9:01

So good. Now, okay, so for people who are listening who maybe not be career folks, I I would imagine this happens for everybody, whether you're leaving a corporate job or you're you've been in a job for a long time, and or you're a parent and that's your full-time role, is oftentimes that becomes our identity, right? It becomes such a powerful part of who we are. And if even when we're miserable, we don't want to pivot because we're so wrapped up in an identity. But for those who are like, ooh, how do I leave that identity behind? I really do want to make a shift. How do they go about that?

SPEAKER_01: 9:40

Yeah. Well, even saying it that way, I think can be so scary for people. Like, how do you leave an identity behind?

SPEAKER_00: 9:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 9:48

Then they're gonna what? Step into this foggy world where they're nobody and nobody knows who they are.

SPEAKER_00: 9:55

That's empty nesting. Kids leave home and parents are like, I don't even know who I am anymore.

SPEAKER_01: 10:00

Exactly. And that definitely happens with people leaving the corporate world, too, where they benefited for so long from this shorthand of a title and an accompany affiliation that served as an immediate clout giver. Like they got clout, they got recognition, but it was also a conversation stopper. Oh, you're a product manager at Amazon. Oh, cool. Nobody actually knew what that meant, but it sounded fancy. And it was enough to go, okay, signified their status in our conversation. So they've placed themselves either above, equal to me, or below me, and now we can continue. So it's it's actually a clunky way to encapsulate your identity because it's so limiting of who you actually are. It certainly doesn't represent you in any way. So I think the first step is to look at how you've been identifying yourself. I'm a VP of marketing, whatever it is, and really ask yourself, is that really you? Does that represent who you are in your heart and what you value? And if that title that you've been connected to is limiting in some way, ask your yourself, in what ways did it limit you? What did it not describe about you? Because we're not just abandoning an old identity and stepping into a fog. We're stepping towards something that is more complete and more uh a more vibrant way to describe who you really are, what you love, what you value, what other people love about you.

SPEAKER_00: 11:53

Yeah, I always struggle when people would say, Oh, what do you do? And they give their title, right? As opposed to saying, no, what do you like, what do you do? Go into as like, oh, I know I help people solve problems and find a better way to move forward in life.

SPEAKER_01: 12:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 12:09

And so it's such a just such a conversation starter, but it does like to bring to your points like it does wrap up your identity so much that, no, you're more than that. Don't forget you're more than that.

SPEAKER_01: 12:19

Yeah. And I think there's a shame piece that is important to name here. When somebody says, what do you do? the underlying assumption is you have to be doing something. I, as the person asking you, have to think that that's okay, like an acceptable way to live your life. So that, so now this maybe a stranger who's saying, What do you do? They're now the adjudicator of your value on in the world, which is ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00: 12:50

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 12:51

So, one thing, especially when people have left the corporate world, or maybe they've become empty nesters and they just don't know what is going to be next. Maybe they're not, they don't have a current job, or they're figuring things out and it's taking a long time to figure them out. I like to ask people to reframe the what do you do question to be, what do you love? Because we have more access to what we like than maybe naming something very clear and tangible that other people can understand quickly. If I hear it as, what do you love? I can say, oh, well, I'll tell you, I do I go to a dance fitness class every week. I totally love that. And let me tell you why. I am learning how to sew because I was terrible at it, but I'm like paying way more attention to the detail of sewing, and it's really, really lighting me up. I have these people that I meet with, and you can easily rattle off the things that you are doing, but mostly you love doing them. And we connect with each other so much more readily around things that we like rather than conversation stoppers of some random title at some random company that nobody understands anyway.

SPEAKER_00: 14:13

Yeah, I love that. What do you love? I another one of my favorites is what are you excited about in your life right now? Just to because that's oh, yeah, here's here's here's what I'm excited about, here's what I love. And then that conversation continues. And that I think that exploration is something we can use maybe even internally when we're looking to pivot. If we're not happy, is what do I love and what am I excited about? And if it's not internal and it's external to the ex to the organization, maybe it is a good time to start wondering about pivoting.

SPEAKER_01: 14:42

Yeah. And there's something important in what you just said. When when people ask us, what do you love and what are you excited about? If you're really deeply in burnout, you might not remember. I talk to a lot of people who come to me and say, I don't even remember what I like. Yeah. I'm I'm so beaten down by this job. I have caregiving responsibilities, my parents are aging. Like I am just struggling to get through each hour of the day. And I you ask me what I'm excited about, nothing. And that's that's real for some people.

SPEAKER_00: 15:21

100%.

SPEAKER_01: 15:23

So, first, it's a temporary state. I think that it feelings can seem so permanent, but none of them are. They're all transient. So knowing that it's an impermanent state, the the way that you feel right now, if you can't remember what you like and you're excited about nothing, these this is weather. And also, do you have access to what you used to like? Maybe there are some talents that you had 30 years ago. Oh, I haven't picked up that guitar and think it's still in the basement. You still love playing the guitar. What did you used to love? We can go back to even before your career started to find the things that you got really giddy about when you were younger and maybe revive a couple of those things as a way to test out liking something again.

SPEAKER_00: 16:24

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think that's that that's accessible or more accessible for people to go backwards too, to say, oh, what was I excited about back and then? Yeah. So as we're moving this conversation forward, I know I've said a couple of things and I could tell, well, maybe there's a little bit of misunderstanding on my part about pivoting, but I would imagine maybe reinventing yourself comes with a lot of misunderstanding. So, what's a couple of misconceptions about career pivots that people in their 40s and 50s might be having right now?

SPEAKER_01: 16:52

Yeah, I think a lot of people think that they can pivot, but only like 4%. Like maybe their big pivot is to go from product management to program management. And to them, that feels like a huge change in their career. But but meanwhile, they're just going from the frying pan into the fire, right? If you you can imagine that it's going to be a giant change if you switch your company and go from one company to another company that looks really similar, but it's just going to be a box with different decorations on it. Can we get a little bolder about what a pivot actually would mean so that you're pivoting not just away from something that's making you unhappy, but to something that's going to be more exciting to you? And even that, that idea of doing something more fun could feel crazy and reckless and irresponsible to people. But it's possible. It's possible to go find something that is more fun, even if you have to create it yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 18:08

Yeah, that's a good point too. Yeah, anything is possible. It's just how wide of a percentage point do you want to go with your pivot? You said 4% might seem like a huge pivot for people, and that's the risk they're willing to take, but it also doesn't have to be 100% of a pivot either, right? It doesn't have to be some seismic shift to make the change.

SPEAKER_01: 18:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 18:31

Either.

SPEAKER_01: 18:32

That's right. And and I see a lot of people go through kind of these cycles of exploration where first they think I just need to get a different job that is 4% different than what I have now, and everything will be fine. And then they try that and it does not work at all. And then they say, okay, well, maybe I need to leave my company and find another company. And then they go through this job search and they are deeply unimpressed by every job, that job description that they read. Or in this market today, they apply for a hundred jobs and hear back from zero of them. And then with every rejection and every failure, their hearts actually get a little bolder each time. And then they think, I'm gonna start thinking about the types of problems I like to solve. Because there's some things out there that really make me mad that aren't fixed yet. Like, why is this thing designed the way it is? Really bugs me. There needs to be a better design for that thing. And then they start talking to other people and maybe conducting tiny little experiments where they can just work on that for even a few hours, a few days. They can go to an event with other people who are really, really care about that design thing. And then they start getting this feedback externally that there is a world out there of other people with small businesses or startup ideas that are excited and care about the stuff that you care about that you thought nobody else cared about.

SPEAKER_00: 20:46

Yeah, as it's becoming intentionally curious.

SPEAKER_01: 20:49

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 20:50

Yeah. So how does how do people step into that, even if they're in this kind of feeling stuck state?

SPEAKER_01: 20:55

Yeah, I will say something important about curiosity. If people are in burnout or they're in the fog of just having left, it can feel hard to grasp for that curiosity. Because in order to feel curious, we need to feel safe. And if we're not feeling safe in our current environment, we won't be able to tap into that natural curiosity that we have. So bringing somebody else along for the ride with you, like calling up a buddy and saying, I want to go to this event and it might be weird, and we're going to be talking about widget design. Will you just come with me? That is a great way to borrow the curiosity from somebody else and remember what it feels like.

SPEAKER_00: 21:43

Ah, yeah. Borrow, I love that. Borrow the curiosity, like have a have a curiosity partner.

SPEAKER_01: 21:49

Yeah. To go to events.

SPEAKER_00: 21:50

Yeah. That may they may be more intentionally curious at this point in their life.

SPEAKER_01: 21:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 21:55

And they can actually lead the questioning, perhaps. I love that point.

SPEAKER_01: 21:59

Yeah, it's like having a wingman.

SPEAKER_00: 22:01

I love that. I love it. No, so we may have gotten a little bit of our ahead of ourselves in this conversation. My my mind's going, some people may be thinking, oh, well, I'm not sure if I'm actually stuck and it's time to pivot. Or am I just, do I need a mental and emotional break and don't actually have to pivot?

SPEAKER_01: 22:19

Yeah, that's great. And for a lot of people, staying in their current jobs is absolutely the right move. But what can we what can we explore that can have you feel more settled? In your life and a little more alive. And I think that's really looking at what your life is like outside of work. And also inquiring about how much work your work has to do. People put a lot of expectations on their jobs to fulfill their social engagement, their sense of meaning, their sense of accomplishment and achievement, all of the positive emotions that they want to experience. So all of a sudden you've got this job which you don't even like, but the job of your job is to be your absolute best friend and provide everything that you need it to provide for you.

SPEAKER_00: 23:17

Yeah. All the fundamental needs get satisfied by the corporate world, right? The job itself. And sometimes we forget that that's not really true.

SPEAKER_01: 23:25

It's too much. It's too much. It's like, it's like asking your friend to be your one and only person that you ever interact with and to provide you with all of your needs. It just doesn't work. So how can we take the pressure off of your job to fulfill you in every possible way? And some of that could be like, man, we need to tend to these friendships that we've been neglecting outside of work. Maybe we need a hobby so that we get our creativity running again. Do we have some kind of volunteer activity or faith community or something that gives us that sense of purpose and meaning so that we have this connective tissue that runs under our lives and we're not so dependent on the job to do all of that for us?

SPEAKER_00: 24:19

Yeah. So I know there's some research out there that obviously men and women, we know this, they're different, but in terms of building networks, right? So often men get so tied into the network of work, their job at work, and they don't know how to build a network outside of that. So when they retire or they pivot or they do something else, they lose all that, just what we're talking about. And women are much better at building networks along those lines and building community. Do you do anything like that with folks who are in this middle of a pivot trying to teach them how to build community again if they need to?

SPEAKER_01: 24:52

Yeah, for sure. And I and I love that you pointed out the difference between typically men and women. Men also have the advantage of being activity-based in their social connections. So if they're leaving a job or trying to figure out the next thing, they don't have to take the cue from what the women are all doing, which is like just getting together and talking, because that's not really a natural activity for a lot of guys. But they can go play pickup basketball, or they can find a group that's doing short hikes on the weekends or doing bike rides. If they find an activity that they already like and just do that with a group, they will form a network.

SPEAKER_00: 25:38

I love that. Yeah, there, I was just listening to something, I can't remember where it came from, but it's it's some it's like an organization that's starting to create he sheds and bringing men together and just be like, play by yourself. I know it sounds funny, but play by yourself, whatever it is, activity that you're doing, woodworking or something else. And then naturally they'll start to have a conversation with it's literally going back to the sandbox that's where everybody's like in four corners. And I can't remember where I saw it. I should have bookmarked it, but I like that's the concept. Like, that's how it works for men is you gotta get you have to bring them together, even if they don't interact.

SPEAKER_01: 26:14

Yeah. And I think there's another piece here about the assumption of mastery. You don't have to have the assumption of mastery in yourself. Well, I want to do a mountain bike thing, but I'm not really good at it. I don't want to embarrass myself. I don't want to shame myself in front of a bunch of these new guys. So I'm just not gonna do it. There are easy on-ramps to do this, even if you have to take a class, because you're gonna connect with the other people in the class as you learn the thing. Go to the technical college and take the wood shop class. You don't have to have mastery before you start the activity.

SPEAKER_00: 26:54

That I love. Perfect advice. I just that's a small leap. Right? It's not too risky. I think everybody's at the same starting point, which seems a little bit to be a little bit more accept accessible, maybe for some folks. But for anyone who's listening, they're they're not quite sure. They're maybe a little frustrated, but they're not quite sure they want to make the leap. What's one practical action they can take today to start moving toward a more perhaps authentic and fulfilling work life?

SPEAKER_01: 27:22

Yeah, one one exercise I really love that I do with all of my clients is an essence exercise where you're trying to figure out what you're like when you're operating at your very best. And again, if you're feeling crappy in your job and you're feeling burned out, you might not remember what you're like. Go out and consult 10 friends, family members, colleagues, whoever knows you well, and just ask them that question. What am I like when I'm operating at my best? And have them write it down because they might say, Oh, you're super cool. No, you're great, dude. That's not useful. But if they write it down and send it to you, you'll discover that they tell the most beautiful stories about you. And embedded in those stories are this, are these qualities that you exude that you might not remember that you exude. You'll get all of this stuff from your friends and family and colleagues that you'll be able to refer back to when you're feeling like you're in your dark times.

SPEAKER_00: 28:38

Yeah. I did I did that. Yeah, I did that when I was leaving my education career into becoming an entrepreneur. I just send a text to I don't even know how many people, 20 people maybe, and said, What are my superpowers?

SPEAKER_01: 28:50

Yeah. What are you doing?

SPEAKER_00: 28:51

And it's the equivalent.

SPEAKER_01: 28:53

What did you get from that?

SPEAKER_00: 28:54

I I learned uh that I'm patient and super inclusive and make people feel heard and understood. And I was like, oh, okay, like I know how I can use those skills in this next career. But I like the idea of like how to say your phrase again and just slip my mind, but say your phrase again, what you ask people.

SPEAKER_01: 29:13

What am I like when I'm operating at my best? And so we're not specifically asking for skills and strengths. We're trying to get to this, these deeper qualities of what am I about? And I've had clients go out and do this exercise, and their their friends and family come back and say, let me tell you this story about this one time when we were throwing a surprise party for your cousin, and you just handled everything. And I knew this about you. This really exemplified your character. And that's such a those you're such beautiful stories to read and hang on to. And there is a spark of something in those stories that will inform what's next for you.

SPEAKER_00: 29:59

Yeah. And I think that's a great takeaway for people who maybe not be in corporate, who are the primary caregiver in their families, to ask your friends the same question because it's a really good reminder of what you're good at and may be able to pivot into in your second act.

SPEAKER_01: 30:14

That's right.

SPEAKER_00: 30:14

It's so good. What's one of your biggest motivators right now in the work that you're doing?

SPEAKER_01: 30:19

Really witnessing the transformation that people can go through once they acknowledge that they're in an unhealthy environment, value themselves and their inherent worthiness as deserving something better and then figuring out how to go get it.

SPEAKER_00: 30:39

That's such an important point to remind people of.

SPEAKER_01: 31:00

Oh, that I need coworkers. That entrepreneurship doesn't have to be a solo, isolating endeavor. You can have people with you, even if you're working alone in your office. And for me, it was really important for me to find other people, other coaches, other solo business folks that I could connect with on a very regular basis. Because if I'm alone for too long, I get a little weird. So I need coworkers. And so I've gone out and found them.

SPEAKER_00: 31:33

I co-workers. I struggle with that exact same thing. Having been in education for so long, the community that comes with it is oh, yeah. But I it is you find your people and you it's just making a concerted effort to keep up with them. So I like that. I need co-workers. I think everybody needs co-workers. Yeah. Whether you're actually actively working in a full-time job or not.

SPEAKER_01: 31:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_00: 31:55

That's a great takeaway, Shelly. Thank you so much. And I I I appreciate you coming on today and sharing a little bit about how people can pivot what they might be looking for and how they might like take those next steps if they truly are and happy in what they're doing, especially if they're in midlife and their 40s and 50s and looking to pivot out and do something different for their for their second act. So I appreciate the conversation today. Yeah. How can people find you?

SPEAKER_01: 32:21

They can visit my website, burnthemapcoaching.com, or check out my podcast, Burn the Map.

SPEAKER_00: 32:27

Awesome. Thanks again for being here, Shelly.

SPEAKER_01: 32:30

Thanks so much.